We journey through Liz’s product experiences across diverse organizations and learn how to put OKRs into practice to steer teams effectively and maintain laser focus. We’ll also explore the art of saying ‘no’, and how to retain focus when a strategy misfires. In addition, we dig into the array of leadership styles in different organisations. Learn how data-driven decision making and a robust product mindset can transform any company, regardless of size.
In this episode, we cover:
- 0:00: Product Management in different-sized organizations
- 12:46: Using OKRs for strategy in organizations
- 21:01: Leadership in startups and larger organizations
- 32:27: The importance of execution excellence
Featured links
- Follow Liz on LinkedIn and Twitter
- Liz’s ‘Navigating different org sizes as a product leader’ piece at Mind The Product
- Find out about Memmo
Episode transcript
Randy Silver:
Lily , I love everything about making this podcast. I love talking to our guests, I love hanging out with you and learning all kinds of new stuff.
Lily Smith :
Yeah, me too. That’s all ace, but there’s one thing about it that isn’t quite as much fun.
Randy Silver:
Just what did I miss? Didn’t I cover everything what could possibly be left?
Lily Smith :
Randy, seriously, these intros, they are the hardest part of the whole process.
Randy Silver:
Well, hmm, over the years, you know, we’ve either outsourced the other parts of the job that we don’t like or gotten some advice from experts. Maybe we should do that for the intros too.
Lily Smith :
Oh, okay, yeah, good idea, and what luck that we’ve got one scheduled for this week. How funny.
Randy Silver:
Yes, look at us foreshadowing and we’ve got an old colleague of mine to chat with this week. Erica Jorgensen and I’ve both spent time at Amazon a long while back, and she’s now a staff content designer at Chewy and the author of the new book Strategic Content Design Tools and Research Techniques for Better UX.
Lily Smith :
And if you buy it now from Rosenfeldmediacom, you can get 15% off with the code MTP15.
Randy Silver:
On with the chat. The product experience is brought to you by Mind the Product. Every week on the podcast we talk to the best product people from around the globe.
Lily Smith :
Visit minetheproductcom to catch up on past episodes and discover loads of free resources to help you with your product practice. You can also buy more information about Mind, the Product’s conferences and their great training opportunities happening around the world and online.
Randy Silver:
Create a free account on the website for a fully personalized experience and to get access to the full library of awesome content and the weekly curated newsletter Mind. The Product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. There’s probably one near you.
Lily Smith :
Hi Liz, welcome to the podcast. It’s so lovely to be talking to you today. Hi Lily, hi Randi, nice to be with you tonight. So before we get stuck into our topic, it’d be great if you could give us a real quick intro to who you are and what you’re doing in product these days.
Liz Clow:
Yeah, sure. So yeah, I’m Liz, I’m the CPO at a Swedish startup called Memo. But I got into product quite a long time ago, like several people working in product. I like to talk about the days before we even called it product. So you know, the early 2000s. After being a journalist for a few years, I kind of stumbled by luck, by fluke, who knows what, into a inter product when I was working at the BBC and, yeah, had a number of years working across the likes of BBC News, bbc Sport, as a product manager. I was part of the BBC’s first product team where we were very fortunate had Marty Kagan kind of flown over to come and kind of coach us and yeah, that’s how I got into product. Really, I think there’s quite a few synergies with journalism through, you know, kind of digging into things, research, being curious and, yeah, as I say, a bit of luck as much as anything. And, you know, fast forward through the years, after they went and worked in a couple of other news companies, including at News UK where I headed up product at the Sun, and then, after the kind of stint in the media, I moved into kind of marketplace companies. So I was at Groupon, which obviously is an e-commerce company. I then worked in the iGaming sector at iTech Media and then now at Memo Awesome.
Lily Smith :
So you’ve had quite a wide and varied career working in lots of different types of product businesses, and so today we’re going to be talking to you about some of that really varied experience that you’ve had in different sized product organisations and what it’s like doing product in those different types of businesses. But when you think about your experiences in those different organisations, was size the kind of the main factor of the differences between them, or were there other things at play that really distinguished the roles that you were doing and how it impacted what you needed to do? So I definitely don’t think size is the only factor?
Liz Clow:
I think it’s, but it is significant, I think. You know, working in a startup, scale up or more established kind of enterprise company is different and what I’ve come across is, you know, lots of people are quite intrigued by that and often ask me you know what’s the difference? You know, I see myself as a startup PM or I see myself only working in big companies and actually I think there’s there’s not so much difference in the fundamentals in those places. Obviously, how, how that kind of manifests itself and how how you actually do product management or be a product leader of product managers in those environments can vary, but it varies whatever organisation you work in, whatever sector you work in. But the size can have a massive impact in in how you do product and you know, I think it’s definitely as people you know know, a lot of product managers are looking for new roles at the moment. The market’s been really tough and I just think, you know, I really encourage people to look, look outside where they’ve worked previously and and kind of open their eyes to other opportunities, because I think there’s perhaps a misconception that startups can always be really, really fast and enterprise companies really slow, and I don’t think that’s always strictly true for many reasons.
Randy Silver:
So, if it’s not size or stage of the company, what are the distinguishing factors that we should look for in deciding? Is this one right for us? Is this the type of opportunity we should go for, or maybe branch out into?
Liz Clow:
So I think it depends on what you’re looking for in your career. But moving into a different size company can, you know, really stretch you and create a load of growth opportunities that you perhaps wouldn’t get by staying in the same environment. And there are so many similarities as well as differences. And you know, I’ve kind of broken this down into you know, a bit of a kind of looking at the different kind of pillars, that that you could compare and contrast those organisations. And you know a nicer lacron name, scale, just to make it really easy to remember really looks at some of those, those pillars ultimately. So scale stands for strategy, customer centricity, agility, leadership and execution, and those are things that we all talk about as product managers. And you know, if we were to dive into, into some of those, I think there’s, as I say, kind of some, some just different ways that you would approach them. So perhaps I’ll start with strategy. And you know what I’ve seen in startups is that you can go into a startup and and in you might be that. You know, one of the first things I’ve experienced is you know people on the ground, your team, your colleagues saying really feel like what’s missing is a strategy. What does that look like? You know we’re trying to do lots of things, but we don’t really know where we’re going, and I think that’s where, as a product manager or as a leader of product managers, it’s our job to come in and help bring that, that plan, bring the company together, centred around, around those. You know where we want to get to. Obviously, that’s a strategy we’re ultimately looking at. Where are we now and where do we want to get to? And what are? You know, in startups, often it does exist. It exists in, you know, the wonderful brains of some of the entrepreneurs I’ve worked with but it doesn’t exist as something that the teams can really rally around and get excited about. And so that’s one of the things that you really want to be able to do when you, when you come into a startup environment to bring some of that product thinking to really kind of think about the goals, think about the customers. You want to focus on the market landscape and do it in a really quite timely way, you know, quite a lean way. It doesn’t have to take weeks or months to start to pull that together and bring some shape around strategy and, as I say in startups, scale up. Sometimes that’s what they’re crying out for and that’s often why entrepreneurs bring in experienced product people to bring some of that into the organization and focus everybody around that.
Lily Smith :
And so my experience is mainly in startups and I’ve always imagined the strategy process in startups tends to be quite fluid and a little bit chaotic. Maybe I always imagined that doing strategy, product strategy and putting your product strategy together in a much bigger organization or kind of older organization would be like a much more mature process and a much more defined process. Is that the case, or is there still that kind of scrabble around for information and data and buying from different people and trying to have those conversations and get alignment and all of that kind of thing?
Liz Clow:
It can be all of those things and I guess it really depends on who the most senior product person is that’s in place and whether they’ve managed to have some of those conversations and bring some of that alignment before you’ve joined, but not always. I think. Although we live and breathe product, it still can be. The thought of a product strategy as opposed to a business strategy or a marketing strategy can be a new lens on which to look through, and so it always depends. But I think what I’ve seen in the larger organizations is increasingly colleagues and senior leadership looking to product teams to bring a fresh pair of eyes. Because what we can often do in those organizations is help break down silos, and I think that’s one of the really important things we can do as product managers in larger organizations is bring together conflicting strategies, conflicting plans and help to bring that product led approach, to bring data and insight into the conversation and not just have a strategy focus purely on revenue and goals of that nature. So it can take time, but a lot of that time can be around the communication aspects of working as a product manager, having those conversations, as I say, bringing that insight to the table and getting everybody on the same page. I think that’s the biggest risk to the larger organizations is where they are working in separate ways and, as I say, increasingly I think in those larger organizations they’re looking for fresh ways to do this to align everybody.
Lily Smith :
So when you’re working on the strategy in the larger organization again, this is like me theorizing what it’s like to be in that position, but again, I sort of imagined that in order to get all of the inputs into your strategy, it’s very much a case of managing lots of other people and resources to help you formulate that plan, whereas in a startup, you know you might not have someone who’s heading up research or a data analytics team, so you’re very much kind of doing the work yourself as well as putting the strategy together. Do you think that’s a fair sort of summary of the potential differences there?
Liz Clow:
Yeah, I think it absolutely can be the time it takes to pull those people together, because you want that input, of course, from various parts of an organization. Sometimes it depends on how empowered you are. As a product leader, for example, in those environments One of the larger companies I worked in I had a great deal of autonomy to create and lead and pull that strategy together Great freedom around kind of a budget, et cetera, et cetera. So that makes it a lot easier. If you’ve got that understanding of what budget you’ve got to play with, you know what team you’ve got, you’re fairly aligned with where the business is trying to go, then actually you can get started fairly quickly. But it’s still super important. Your strategy is never going to be successful unless you take everybody on that journey, and I really kind of stress upon that. That’s such an important part of that role in the larger organization is having those difficult conversations. Because what you also want to be clear about and again I probably bias this towards the larger organizations is making sure you’re very clear about what you’re not going to focus on as well For the next X period of time. This is our focus, but just as importantly, this is what we’re not going to do. We’re not going to do this right now. We might come back to it in the future but to create focus, which is what you really want in a strategy. It’s as much about being transparent and saying no to things and being really kind of clear about that to your colleagues, because you can get that buy in and that’s just a never ending conversation, of course, as well.
Randy Silver:
Liz, one of the ways of creating that alignment and creating that focus on strategy is by using OKRs, and I know you’ve got thoughts on the different ways that they’re used at different size and stage companies.
Liz Clow:
Yeah, absolutely. You know I’m a big fan of OKRs. You know ultimately they’re there to help you know our strategy, to see whether we’re going in the right direction and to help us execute on that strategy. So, but it doesn’t mean OKRs are always easy. And you know one of the larger organisations I worked in, you know there was a little bit of resistance to introducing OKRs on a grand scale. So it felt much more natural and was more successful just to start that small, you know, taking one squad or one product team and playing around with using OKRs and seeing whether that worked and whether that was successful before steadily rolling it out further. But I’ve also seen, you know, in other organisations in particular in kind of the startup scale up type world, where you know teams have already played around with OKRs but perhaps they’re not quite working for them. And you know, I think going into those organisations and having a fresh pair of eyes is always so helpful. But I’ve seen, you know, perhaps the OKRs being taken over by process or by the software that’s being used to track them etc. And that can be so painful and so draining to teams and so I’d rather not use OKRs at all if they’re just being used for the sake of it, rather than helping to guide the teams and to guide the strategy. So you know again, you know, keeping it really simple, having, you know, making sure that, whether that’s the teams themselves, are centred around just a single objective underpinned by, you know, three, four, five at the most OKRs is all it needs, rather than having, you know, teams having multiple OKRs or individual and OKRs that kind of, you know, span all sorts of different kind of sets of teams. So, getting in there and really, yeah, going back to basics, you know OKRs that they’re absolute, fundamental, are there to guide us there, to create alignment between teams there, to, you know, set really stretchy, ambitious goals, but they’re also there to create focus and not be taken over by the process that it takes to get there. So I always encourage teams start small and, you know, build from there, make sure that they’re working for you. Where I am at the moment at Memo, you know we use OKRs. We stopped using them for a while when we found that the process wasn’t right for us, but now we centre all teams in the company around three simple OKRs, sets of OKRs, and that really works, and so it doesn’t matter whether somebody is a product manager, if there’s someone’s an engineer, a salesperson. We’re all centred around three OKRs which we know are super important to us and we’re able to measure and track, using kind of leading metrics, to make sure we’re on the right path and then pivoting when we’re not. You know, one of the things you know that we’ve done at Memo is pause a OKR, you know, midway through a quarter. I wouldn’t always encourage that, but actually when we are moving and we’ve been, you know, kind of evolving our strategy over the last six months or so as we’ve moved from a kind of more B to C world into B to B and it just made sense to pause a specific thing that we’re working on and reset that OKR. Don’t carry on with them throughout a quarter just because you’ve set them at the start. That’s not helping your strategy either. You know things do change. That’s not to say I would encourage changing them all the time. You need some kind of stability, obviously, but you know, don’t carry on with them if they’re not working for you, if they’re not working for the team, and make sure your team is really buying to them. Otherwise you know what’s the point.
Lily Smith :
Hey, randy are the rumors true, Billy?
Randy Silver:
I can’t believe it. Mtp are giving away all nine of the San Francisco keynote talks for free, both the recording and a written summary of each one and handy discussion points and thought starters to think about solo or with your team. And an email notification each time a new talk is published on mindtheproductcom.
Lily Smith :
So you’ll never miss a talk and be the first to hear when the next one is hot off the press.
Randy Silver:
Of course, nothing can be detending MTP Khan in person, but this is the next best thing.
Lily Smith :
So sign up at mindtheproductcom forward slash S F keynote kit. That’s mindtheproductcom forward slash S F keynote kit. Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve really deep dived into strategy, which is the first part of the scale acronym, which I like, by the way. Sometimes I’m not keen on an acronym when it feels like it’s been shoved into a, into a make up a word, but I feel like this one makes a lot of sense, so I’m fun. So the next one was customer centricity. So how does that differ between, or how is it the same between, larger orgs and the smaller startups?
Liz Clow:
Well, certainly in the larger organizations, I think the opportunity there is for us to make sure that customer insight isn’t siloed and is there for you know, for all to share. You know, I think traditionally and historically you know, customer insight might have sat in a marketing team or something like that. But you know, as as companies become much more product led, you know there are, there are snippets of insight and data that just should be shared around as much as possible, whether that’s, you know, getting people from customer service involved as well as, obviously, kind of UX researchers, marketing teams, etc. And so part of the role in a larger organization is to to be that catalyst for change and to encourage that sharing and democratizing of the of any insight that’s coming in and and perhaps helping surface that through processes, through showcasing, through kind of team teamwork, to bring all of that together. So I think that’s where in a larger organization that I’ve seen the biggest opportunity as I say, bring that to to the fore, so it’s not hidden away into everybody is is thinking and talking with the customer at the heart of everything. And then the other end of the spectrum, you know it can be about, you know, showing the value of getting that customer insight in. In startups. You know where people have been so busy and trying to get that product market fit really early, perhaps haven’t had the enough team or enough specialists to be able to really focus on that. And I think again, you know in that in that startup environment it’s making sure that the value of that insight, the value of data at the heart of the business is is really your focus and you know that’s. You know so it is different between the smaller companies and the more established companies, but it doesn’t mean that nobody’s thinking about customers. It doesn’t mean that nobody’s digging into data, but actually it’s surfacing it in the larger organizations and then actually using it and finding value and taking action of it. That I’ve seen in startups.
Randy Silver:
That leads really nicely into the next bit about agility, and I think a lot of what you’re talking there is using the customer centricity and the strategy that we’ve already talked about in a way to create empowered teams. But how does this vary? What are the different levels of challenge that you see?
Liz Clow:
So I think, in terms of agility, it’s absolutely about creating an environment where teams can work quickly. So what does that mean? It means enabling people, enabling product managers, to be able to be the decision makers. Ultimately, they’re closest to the customers, they’re closest to the data. They should be in an environment where they can make decisions, because product managers have to make, I’m going to say, hundreds of decisions a day, whether that’s prioritization calls or whatever it might be, and we need them to be able to do that. So I think empowering people and setting up empowered teams with product managers and designers and engineers, et cetera, all working really together and collectively, that can happen whatever size of organization. It just comes from where it comes from leadership to set that environment up and make sure that it can happen and those teams can really move very, very quickly. So that’s what we want to encourage. And I think in a startup environment, sometimes that agility can be seen as being very busy. There’s always so much to do in a startup, as you say, lily, that’s the environment you’re so familiar with and it’s so busy. There’s always so much to do. But actually by creating that team environment and again, that’s where OKRs comes in as well, to enable people to move quickly, you need clarity on the direction you’re going on set up of the teams that they’re trusted, they understand what being empowered means, they understand what it means to take decisions and then, as a product leader, to be able to really encourage that. And sometimes that takes coaching, because not everybody’s used to that empowerment, especially if they’ve come from an environment where that doesn’t exist before. And so I’ve worked in places before, with my engineering counterpart, for example. We’ve spent time really articulating what is meant by being empowered, what trust does look like, and I think just having that freedom, you just see the best works, don’t you? When you give people the environment to thrive and to make decisions, they’ll go on and do exactly that. And it’s not the Wild West. People aren’t just going off and doing their own thing. That’s still within the overarching strategy the OKRs that sit there and sometimes in the scale-up environments and start-up environments of being in, making sure that we’ve got that layer of communication where product managers can come back for feedback, can come back for advice, can be unblocked, and so you need the right forum set up for that. I’ve called them previously things like strategy sync, so you have a check-in with those empowered teams on a regular basis. So you’re there, unblocking them, helping them, encouraging them to go and crack their OKRs and move their piece of the jigsaw forwards.
Lily Smith :
So, moving on to the leadership element of the scale acronym, what’s the difference there then? Because I imagine that is definitely. Surely that has to be one area where it is quite different between a start-up environment and a much bigger organization.
Liz Clow:
Yeah absolutely. So it looks different in different environments and in that larger organization, often leadership is about setting up the teams to be empowered. It’s about the communication and the dialogue that you’re having to have with other colleagues in other parts of the business to make sure that you’ve got that alignment. In a start-up environment, leadership can look very different. Sometimes you’re rolling up your sleeves much, much more and leading by example, so it can look very different. What’s similar, though, is, as a leader, whatever size of organization you’re in, you’re there to bring that product mindset whether that’s in a start-up bring that into the entire company, often to bring that data-driven mindset to make sure that that collaboration and communication is happening. But you see that as you go through the size of organizations In a scale-up environment, your leadership role is often hiring and recruiting a team, where you need to trust and take on other people in your team to manage the day-to-day, because so much of your time is spent on recruitment in a scale-up environment. But yeah, absolutely, once you get to the larger organization, you have to have the right setup, you have to have the teams in place, you have to have the processes, because so much of your time is spent with other parts of the organization, in getting buy-in, in understanding where the business is going and some of those other areas that you need to put your focus on. So it varies, but it’s ultimately whatever size of organization. It’s about bringing that product mindset, about bringing data and insight, about setting up teams for success. But, yeah, you’re doing it in a slightly different world, but it’s really exciting and challenging, whether that’s the larger organization or the small one. It’s just different ways of approaching it.
Lily Smith :
And how do you manage upwards in both of those scenarios? Because if you’re a product leader in a smaller startup or scale-up you’re probably very close to the CEO or founder and the C-suite. If you’re not in the C-suite and then in a much bigger organization you can be a product leader, a head of product, but not have that closeness to the C-suite. So how do you kind of juggle the sort of differences in how you approach managing up in those two situations?
Liz Clow:
So I think I’ve been really fortunate because in the larger organizations I’ve worked in I have worked really closely with the C-suite, either reporting directly into a C-po or a C-ta on occasion, so that managing up has not been too challenging. I can imagine that in some circumstances where you’re a bit far removed from that, then yeah, it would make it really difficult, but that’s not my experience. I think actually in those larger organizations I mean it’s super important you can’t really be hugely effective, I don’t think, as a product manager, as a product leader, unless you have that interaction with the C-suite, either directly or indirectly, because what we’re doing has to be aligned with the direction the company is going in and to kind of encourage that product, that product mindset within the organization. You want to be able to have those opportunities. So maybe I’ve been quite lucky there and I don’t have any kind of times where that’s been really difficult. You’re absolutely right, in the kind of startup scale environment, work really really closely with CEO founders and that’s great because that really helps bring in that product mindset into not just into their environment but the wider leadership team as well. And I think you know a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of founders you know, are really kind of really switched onto. You know the way product product managers think, the way we work and the benefits we bring to an organisation and having that really regular dialogue just helps. You know, it doesn’t just help product management and a product department, but it actually helps a business as a whole to bring in some of those great practices that we have. So yeah, it’s definitely different, but I’ve not had the experience in the larger organisation which hasn’t enabled me to speak pretty much directly to C-suite all the time. Thank goodness, because I think it would be really really challenging if you didn’t have those avenues and those routes to celebrate and to work with those people.
Randy Silver:
Liz how much does coaching and relationship management come into it at these different size and stage organisations?
Liz Clow:
Yeah, I mean, coaching is absolutely fundamental, whatever organisation size we’re working in. You know that one-to-one coaching is just a non-negotiable. From my point of view, it’s so important and you know, just having that in place to be able to encourage, to provide feedback and, to, you know, help the people in your team get the best possible product manager that they can be. It’s super important. And also, in a larger organisation, what you can do through that coaching is give insight that perhaps you know your team members won’t have. You know a little bit, like we were just talking about about being you know, whether, you know you have access to, you know the conversations from the C-suite and things like that. Your role as a product coach in that environment is to also feed information and insight into the wider business, to, into your team members. So coaching, absolutely crucial, non-negotiable and is just, you know, one of the best parts of being a product leader to you know, help encourage your product managers to, or designers to, be the best that they can be.
Lily Smith :
And speaking of excellence, that’s a nice segue into the last point on the acronym, which was Execution, and doing that excellently. So tell me more about this, like what are your experiences when it comes to execution in both different sizes of org?
Liz Clow:
Well, ultimately, regardless of size of org, I think execution is where we’re all judged isn’t it you? know this is where we are successful or not so successful, because, regardless of you know we can have the best product environment and the best people, but if we’re not hitting our goals and if we’re not delivering at a speed that meets expectations, then you know you’re going to have, you’re going to struggle to kind of really prove success. So I think where execution excellence really comes in is is bringing that alignment and, you know, making sure that what we’re being judged for and how we’re being measured is really crystal clear so there’s no surprises. And again, kind of that’s where where I really like things like OKRs, because they can be front and centre of how we’re judged and and how teams themselves can judge whether they’re being successful and whether they’re moving in the right direction. So I think you know it is really it’s ultimately we’ve got to be able to move at pace, we’ve got to be able to deliver against our outcomes. But of course we know in the product world we don’t always know what that looks like. And you know making sure that those conversations around being very outcome focused rather than just, you know, feature led or output focus, is important. So you don’t wait until you’re. You know you’re suddenly delivering lots of things. You want to align your colleagues, your leadership team, around those outcomes very, very early on, because otherwise, I think you know you can get in situations where product teams can be judged, for you know whether they are delivering certain features or whether they are delivering by a certain date. Of course you know that’s. That’s just not an environment you want to be in. So my message there is you know let’s you know you want to be able to move at pace, but you want to be able to move at pace to deliver those outcomes, because that’s what will make a successful business. That will make really happy teams and happy bosses as well, if we’re hitting those goals. So, yeah, it’s that doesn’t vary so much, regardless of environment. I don’t think you know you’re you’re judged on that in the larger organizations, of course, and in the smaller organizations you know there’s a lot of focus on pace and you know hitting product market fit very early on, and so you know we have to set up that environment where, where people can can do all of those things, and you know product managers and engineers and designers and researchers working very, very closely together. Having those empowered teams is is crucial to that as well.
Lily Smith :
When, when I was reading about scale and came to the execution element of it, it reminded me very early on in my career of a of a boss I had who would always talk about like what good looked like and you know, do you know what good looks like? And I was always just a bit like what? But? But now I find myself saying it you know a lot to other people of like, you know as a team, what does a good? You know even just like what does a good user story look like? Or what does a good juridic it look like? And what does a good presentation to the business look like? What does it achieve? And For me, like that execution element, and even in the micro tasks or like work that you do as a product manager, it really kind of speaks to that side of things as well for me. And and and how important that is in all of those different areas, to know, to know what good looks like and to be able to strive for that and make sure that you’re always improving and you’re you know you’re really being the best that you can be. So, yeah, I just love that. Execution excellence is like perfect.
Liz Clow:
Thanks, lily, and I think that’s really you know. That just reminded me of something as well, which is you know you really want to. You know the old cliche progress over perfection. That’s one of the things I say all the time. But you know, one of the great things in a scale up and a larger organization is having a larger group of product managers that you’re working alongside and creating that kind of community of product management. So you’re all learning from each other. So you know, as you say, kind of, you know some of those things that you know what does good look like. You know I don’t have all the answers. Every individual product manager doesn’t have all the answers but together, hopefully, we can crack it and encourage each other continuously to be better and better and strive for you know that good, as you say.
Lily Smith :
Yeah, exactly Liz. It’s been so great talking to you about all of this stuff. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Liz Clow:
Thank you for having me. It’s been. It’s been great to chat. Thank you very much.
Lily Smith :
The product experience is the first and the best podcast from mine the product. Our hosts are me, lily Smith and me, randy Silver. Lou Run Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.
Randy Silver:
Our theme music is from Hamburg based band POW. That’s PAU thanks to Arnie Kittler, who curates both product tank and MTP engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band, for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via product tank regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.
Lily Smith :
If there’s not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more, go to mine the product dot com. Forward slash product tank.
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