We’ve all had the experience of presenting to the leadership team — but what do they say about you when you leave the room? What’s it like to work at that level? And how do you get promoted to the C-suite?
We talked with experienced product and boardroom veteran, Tanya Cordrey about all of this — and much more — for this week’s podcast.
Featured Links: Follow Tanya on LinkedIn and Twitter | Jörg Malang Five Ways of Becoming a Respected Product Leader in the C-Suite | The Guardian
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Episode transcript
Lily Smith:
Hey Randy, it’s themed week on mind the product. We’re talking about product careers, there are articles all over the site, product tech talks, a q&a and more. Yeah,
Randy Silver:
and you know, really we’ve also got a podcast on the topic, you know this one. We’ve talked with others about this topic before though, we’ve talked to Jackie bavaro, and tour Mitchell, Alicia Dixon and Christian God and and I’m sure there’s more, but we’ve got a totally different take on it. Today, we’re finally going behind the curtain to get the view of product from the C suite.
Lily Smith:
Ooh, this is super exciting. we’re chatting to Tanya Cordray, she’s been a senior executive in product, digital and marketing, a board member and so much more.
Randy Silver:
So stick around if you want to hear what they actually say behind your back when you leave the room.
Lily Smith:
The product experience is brought to you by mind the product.
Randy Silver:
Every week, we talk to the best product people from around the globe about how we can improve our practice, and build products that people love.
Lily Smith:
Because it mind the product calm to catch up on past episodes, and to discover an extensive library of great content and videos, browse for free, or become
Randy Silver:
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Lily Smith:
Mind product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. And there’s probably one.
Randy Silver:
Tanya, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Tanya Cordrey:
Well, thank you for having me. It’s wonderful to be here today.
Randy Silver:
So for anyone who hasn’t had the joy of working with you, can you just give us a little quick introduction? What do you do now? And how did you get into this whole world of product related stuff? Yeah,
Tanya Cordrey:
certainly. So nowadays, I live a wonderful portfolio career, which is a mixture of consulting and doing board work. So I’m on the board of various companies like clock shoes. I’m on the board of a footsie 250 jp morgan Investment Trust, which invests in new and emerging companies in Europe. I’m on the Advisory Board of Governors UK. And in terms of consulting, I sort of head up Europe for a fantastic us consultancy called a care partners. Very few people in Europe have heard of them, but they are an amazing group of ex Silicon Valley CTO, CEOs, CEOs, who really help organisations understand technology, how do they grow? How do they build great teams, and they have an amazing client roster such as Walmart, Pixar, LinkedIn, investors like Sequoia, Silverlake, etc. So they’re amazing. And I’ve had a lot of fun working with them over the last couple of years. And how did you get into all this? Ah, so how did I get into all of this? Well, I started life actually as a journalist. So something very different. And I worked for a whole bunch of very unsexy magazines, writing about things about transport, etc. had an amazing time. But I wasn’t ready to my pen went off, did an MBA at London Business School, and then did a typical post MBA job where I ended up running the Strategy Team of what was then called bbc news and current affairs, and then showing my age.com boom, hit. And that’s where I first started getting exposed to the wonderful world of product. So my very first job was working for a now defunct company called e toys. So most people listening to this probably aren’t old enough to remember the toys, but it was a sort of internet giant of.com boom, one. And I was hired to head up growing company called baby centre they had acquired in the US, which was for new and expectant parents. So anybody who’s had a baby probably has used baby centre. And I helped set that up in Europe, I was appointed as the general manager, and worked with an amazing team. And after that, unfortunately, went defunct, we sold babycenter to Johnson and Johnson. I loved it so much. I went and did the same thing again. But this time, I joined a new and emerging company called eBay really long time ago. So eBay was kind of an exponential growth. And I did a few different jobs at eBay. But for the vast majority of time I was there, I ended up running product at eBay, which was an incredible experience because when I first started doing product, the role of the product teams in country was really about localization. But we really change the role of product and this was sort of mirrored and done all across other eBay countries as well where we We had to focus on our users and really understand what were the products we needed to build in country to be a success. And one of the ones we did, which I think was really shows the power of being a product leader, sometimes even when you’re in a satellite operation, is that I was one of the leaders that led the initiative to argue for introducing fixed price selling on ebay at the time, it was only auctions, the US headquarters thought it was a terrible idea, because it would cannibalise the business. But they were very true to the concept that the country was like an independent business unit. So they allowed us they said, if all the overseas countries allow you to agree to this idea of introducing fixed bar selling, you can do it. So that’s what, that’s what myself and a couple of other people did, we persuaded everybody that introducing fixed price was a great idea and and introduced it and within a matter of, I think it was almost a matter of days of introducing it across all the countries outside the US, the US eBay team suddenly did what was called a 911 project, to introduce it into the US. And obviously, it became very quickly a phenomenally large contributor to revenue.
Randy Silver:
So you’ve seen products, really from from all aspects of it on the ground level, but you’ve also held a number of sea level positions and board positions. Yeah, I’m curious. Yeah. What what what mistakes Do you see product people routinely making from that view from that table?
Tanya Cordrey:
Well, it’s interesting, because I spent, I think, probably the mistake I’ve seen most and I think when I ran product and engineering at The Guardian for several years, where I was the Chief Digital Officer. And I think the issue I saw there, and I repeatedly see it over the last few years with doing the consulting work, is that teams are often just not bold enough. I think teams can really default over time to what is known or what is safe. And as a result, they end up doing work that is good, but potentially not great. One of the things I really like to kind of remind teams and remind product managers Is that a good idea is not the same as a great opportunity. In fact, I’ve never met a team that has a shortage of good ideas. There’s always too many good ideas. So just because something’s a good idea doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to work on it. And I think often one of the mistakes is that teams don’t think about the opportunity cost of what they’re doing. So I urge teams to really have that discussion. Product Managers really ask themselves as well. Are they being bold enough? Are they doing enough for both users and the company? Do you think that
Lily Smith:
also needs to come from the leadership in the business, though, to encourage that type of thinking from the product teams?
Tanya Cordrey:
Definitely. without a shadow of a doubt, I think that’s a really interesting point. Because one of the things I learned when I was working at The Guardian is I was there at an amazing period of time where you had Wikileaks, you had Snowden, all these incredible stories. And I know the Guardian can be somewhat of a Marmite brand. But without a shadow of a doubt. At that time, with the editorial led by Alan Rusbridger, there was no question on the editorial teams ambition, they would hold power to account, however powerful wherever in the world. And as a result, I think you have a duty as a product team working in that sort of environment to be bold as well. And I think one of the things I see a lot today in other organisations is that teams often don’t have a bold vision from senior leadership. I’m sure we’ve all experienced this where you’ll say to a product team, where’s the product strategy? Where are you heading to? Where’s the destination? And they’ll say, well, there isn’t a business strategy, I would always argue product team should step into the void if you’re trying to look great, and impress your sort of bosses, etc. So taking lead on that sort of stuff, where there’s a vacuum is a fantastic thing to do. But often, teams can sort of get stuck in this weird, weird sort of, I don’t know how to describe it is sort of a place where it’s not clear where the direction is. So the team ends up just often tweaking or doing optimization, etc. So it’s, it’s great if you’ve got a leader who’s bold.
Lily Smith:
Do you think that’s something that people need to demonstrate in order to really properly progress into leadership careers,
Tanya Cordrey:
if I was to slightly rephrase that, I’m I would say yeah, so I think you don’t necessarily have to be kind of bold, but you do have to be strategic. And I think those two things go together. And as you progress, I think when you start off doing product, often, the jobs are the sort of starter jobs or if you’re a product manager, a lot of the work you’re doing is execution. And as you progress as a product leader, more and more of the work you do, ends up being about the strategy that direction. Now, don’t get me wrong, I often think the execution is almost a hygiene factor, you have to be brilliant and execution. You cannot be a product leader who’s great at strategy and have a team that’s poor at execution, you’re never going to be successful. But you do have to be strategic, you have to be thinking about the long term, not just the short term pieces of work. And I would encourage anybody thinking about wanting to progress their careers, how can you demonstrate that because one of the hard things about stepping up and taking a new position is that they want to see evidence that you’re already using and possess those skills that they’re going to be really calling for in the new role. So things like strategy, things like people leadership is another one, you have to sort of try and demonstrate those even if you don’t necessarily have the official responsibility for them.
Randy Silver:
That’s always a challenge I see for people is in product, you are setting an agenda, you’re setting prioritisation, you’re working directly with other teams. But as we say, it’s all the all the responsibility and none of the power. So you’re depending on other people to actually do the execution to build it with you. But are there any secrets to making sure you’re good at execution? What do you see is common characteristics are people who managed to make it work really well.
Tanya Cordrey:
So I think in that situation, I think you really have to make sure that there’s fantastic alignment. So if you’re reliant on a lot of people, and obviously product roles are, you’re reliant on not just your engineers and your designers, you’re often reliant on other pieces of the organisation as well. So I think it’s really critical that you have alignment. And often there’s a really important role for the product manager to help ensure that alignment. And that alignment can be a whole variety of things that can be here is their alignment about the vision and the strategy. As we’ve said, if there isn’t then helpful, that void is there alignment on what the success measures are. So is everybody pushing the same direction? Amazingly, one of the things about doing consulting is you get to look inside lots of organisations. And I’m always amazed that product and engineering teams have different metrics than other parts of the organisation. And sometimes these two things can actually they’re not there, they can actually almost be in direct conflict. So let me give me an example for it’s, it’s a few years old now, but I was doing a piece of work for a company. And they had a really terrible, terrible problem with retention. They were they were a sort of telco company. And they found that when people signed up, that they would churn very, very quickly. And they formed a product team with the sole job of improving retention. However, the acquisition team, who had nothing to do with the retention team, they were measured and bonused, on profit margins. So their job was to sell the product, but at the highest possible price to get a great margin. And this was one of the fundamental reasons of churn because people would sign up and within 30 days, they’d realised that there were much better deals out there in the market. So the poor retention team really couldn’t do anything. Unless the acquisition team so you had one team, bonus storm, as I say, the gross margin and you’ve got another team measured on retention, but those teams were acting completely against each other. So that was the sort of thing to sort out. Other things that need alignment are going to be things like, are you spending enough time doing discovery? Are the teams really good at alignment in terms of holding each other to account is a really good trust. So I think it’s really there’s some very processi things like how you do discovery, how you’re working and ways of working, but there are also some softer things that product managers really need to help build to help with execution like trust, which is terribly hard thing to to build, if it’s being lost at any point in the past.
Randy Silver:
Okay, so we’re gonna ask you to follow up on alignment and give us a peek behind the curtain and you don’t have to reveal any names or betray any confidences. But I’m curious when you’re with the other people, the other leads on at board level or in the C suite. What do they think the product teams job actually is? Because it often seems like there’s a lot of confusion.
Tanya Cordrey:
So it depends on the company. There are plenty of companies who are really clear on what product management is and does and understands how they contribute to the success of the organisation. But as we all know, unfortunately, there’s a whole bunch of organisations that really don’t understand. So they probably have product teams, and they have engineering teams and all those sort of things. But at the senior level, there may be misunderstanding of what product does. So it’s that old chestnut, where they might think they’re more like project managers. Or they might think that they’re more like a sort of traditional IT service department where you go and put your order in, and something pops out a few weeks later. So it’s really tough in those in those situations. And I think it’s particularly tough for product managers, because often they’re at the forefront of having to drive change, but your senior leaders do need to understand what it is, if if you have a CEO who is not really understanding what product is, well, it’s, it’s going to be very hard for the team to be super successful. Unless somehow, that team, their leader can help educate the, the sort of exec team. And even if you manage to educate the exec team, then you have the board. So the board or even my experience where that boards are even further away from understanding product and tech. So the typical board, because I get to work with boards, as well as sitting on boards, the typical board is a lot older, you will have people who’ve come from a whole different range of industries. And it is perfectly possible that most people on the board, if not every single other person on the board has never really had any experience of digital. So they don’t understand they don’t know if you ask them what product is they don’t understand it. Now, it might be that they’ve worked for a more traditional company, and they think product is a completely different function. So let’s say I’m on the board, o’clock shoes, they have a product management team, but they’re the team that make the shoes, and that’s probably right. But it causes confusion, when you have another team that does a very different job. That’s called the same. So that doesn’t help at times. So it’s difficult. There’s a lot of education to do. It is happening there are more people like myself who being appointed to boards. Interestingly, I think we were appointed initially because I thought they needed they they needed a digital person. But digital digital transformation is sort of peak to where that’s not so often mentioned nowadays. And now they want people with good product and tech experience. But I think they get the tech piece, but they often don’t quite get the product piece. So folks like myself also have to do a lot of educating round the board table.
Lily Smith:
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Randy Silver:
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Lily Smith:
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Tanya Cordrey:
So I’m a big believer, if I was to be sitting down and talking to somebody who’s early on in their product career, I would encourage them to try both. It’s not, it’s not everybody’s cup of tea. But I think people who’ve only worked in companies are doing transformation. I really admire their tenaciousness and their perseverance. But actually, it’s great to go work for an organisation where people understand technology, they understand the power of product. And it’s a great thing to see how it works when you take all those impediments away. But at the same time, if you’ve worked in pure digital companies, it’s great to go and help a company do transformation because you understand what good looks like. And you can help navigate some of the sort of weird Frankenstein versions of product that we sometimes see particularly, you see organisations that will say, Oh, yes, we think we need this thing called product management. We’ve asked the CFO to form a team, or they’ll put it under the marketing team. And often it starts in a very weird home, given sponsorship by somebody who doesn’t understand product either. So I think the other thing I would say is that for the piece about educating upwards, it’s important to always be educating upwards. But it’s not always possible. I don’t wish to be negative here, but you can’t give up on those firms that don’t understand product. But it’s often the battle can be won when there’s a critical mass of people all trying to do it. So if you find yourself as the lone Product Manager in a large organisation that doesn’t understand and maybe even doesn’t want product, well, I’m not saying don’t give it a go, please do give it a go. But you’re not necessarily setting yourself up for success if you are the lone voice, because unfortunately, you do need critical mass of voices that will push from various directions to get that message through. And it does get through and it can be really successful. But it’s it’s really, really tough.
Lily Smith:
Yeah. And and that’s similar to another question that I was going to ask around, you know, when you’re thinking about your product career, is it? Do you find that it’s better to work in one place and kind of, you know, tackle all of the challenges of like setting up a very high performing product team and really work hard at that? Or is it better to kind of get a variety of experience in different companies. So you can see how different businesses approach it? Because I think, you know, there’s pros and cons to both, but I’ve never really been sure as to whether it’s better to sort of stay out for the very long term I, you know, or have a variety of experience.
Tanya Cordrey:
So I’m not sure there’s a right answer to that one. There’s plenty of research that shows that people who are most successful in their career have ended up moving to different companies, and they often move, they don’t always sort of take a vertical step, they sometimes make a sort of horizontal step. So there’s not one right answer to that. But at the same time, I think it’s really great to have the experience of different organisations, I think about when I work with an organisation. In many ways, I’m the product, I am a product myself, of all the different things that I’ve done. And every role I’ve done, I’ve learned something and taken from it, and it makes me a better product leader for doing it. So I would very much encourage somebody to look at other organisations, I mean, we’re in a incredibly privileged position, because there are currently more product jobs than there are product managers. So unlike other careers, we probably have the luxury of being able to go and work for various organisations more than other other functional leaders or other people because we don’t have to necessarily worry too much about the next job. Now you always have to worry about getting the right job because finding a job you love is a really important component. But we do have the privilege of there’s lots of demand and not so much supply. So if you find yourself somewhere and it’s not a good fit, then you Don’t have to stay there because you will find another job. And there’s all the good reasons for you to be brilliant at that other job. As a complete aside, I think one of the best pieces of career advice I was ever given. And this was actually when I was at eBay. We had this amazing woman come and run our HR team across Europe, just called enemy rares, she now runs a company called purple beach. And they made all of us do, I can’t remember the framework It was called, but it was all about understanding what you’re good at and what you like. And it was a very different approach, because I had up until that point, worked for very traditional English organisations and those British organisations would you do your annual review. And at the kind of annual review, they’ll tell you the things that you were good at, they’ll tell you the things that you weren’t so good at. And then you might get some training on the things that you weren’t so good at, to make you better. eBay had a completely different philosophy, they’d say, these are the things you’re good at. And these are the things you’re not so good at, well, the things you’re not so good at, we’re not going to spend any time or training on those things. Because why would we invest to make you only mediocre at these, what we’d rather do is invest on the things you’re good at to make you great at them. And then they also spent time to make sure that what as I say what you liked and what you were good at, there was a good overlap, because we discovered there were people who liked doing things that weren’t necessarily that good at them, or were really good at things that they didn’t like. So for example, on my team, I had a product manager who was unbelievably amazing. And if I ever had a problem, I gave it to her, because she could solve any problem. unpick any gnarly issue, and she could always always deliver. So when anything really difficult, and troublesome landed on my desk, she would be the one to help sorted out. And it turned out when we were doing this exercise, she absolutely hated it. There were elements of those sort of, she really didn’t like those sort of, she was very happy to do it. And she was really great at what she did. But those weren’t the sort of product problems that she really enjoyed tackling. So in order to help retain her. And obviously, to make sure she was enjoying her job, we kind of went okay, we have to sort of slightly shift the types of product issues and topics and challenges that we’re giving her. So it was a really, it was a really fantastic thing. So anybody thinking about their career, think about what you like, think about what you’re good at, be quite honest with yourself. And then where they intercede. If you do that you cannot help but be really successful.
Randy Silver:
We did a an episode a while back with Alicia Dixon who had some really strong advice about working in larger organisations and figuring out how to advance and one of the things she said is that was really important from from her perspective was make sure that you are not only company that your job, but that you get attached to the sexy projects, because you’re never going to stand out on anything else. Is that really true? Is that what you have to do? Or is there a way of working on the thing that’s not necessarily the priority and still standing out?
Tanya Cordrey:
So if anybody listening to this could actually see my face? I’m probably grimacing a bit at the moment because I really don’t want that to be true. I really don’t want that. No, it’s actually it isn’t true. In my in my experience, and my opinion, it isn’t true. Now, don’t get me wrong, if you happen to be on the big sexy projects that have a lot of exposure to the exact team or outward outside the organisation. That’s great. But I don’t like the idea of people jostling to always try and be that person because it’s, it’s impossible to be on every single sexy project. And actually, the truth is what project you’re working on, even sometimes the really boring ones. It’s your job as a product manager to make sure you do a fantastic job so you can make if you’re on a boring project, we’ll try and make it the big sexy project. Because try and show how you’re delivering amazing value. Weirdly, I would say some of the greatest work I’ve seen by teams is when something big goes wrong. So when I was at The Guardian, we moved our domain from Guardian dot code at UK to the guardian.com sounds simple. But actually it was a humongous piece of work. And it’s everything that you don’t want to be in a product project because it’s a big bang. Once you flick the switch. There’s no going back and what’s really frustrating is that when you change your domain that nobody knows quite what’s going to happen, particularly, particularly when you were the size of the guardian and had as much Google juice, historical Google juice that you did. And when we did it, it was a roaring success. We knew the traffic would go down, but it didn’t go down. And it was amazing. And everybody was so happy. And then seven weeks in, suddenly the traffic went down. And the next day, it went down further. And the next day, it went down further, and the traffic went into kind of fairly major decline. And everybody was panicking. It was really tough on the team, because it wasn’t clear what was happening. And the truth is, it wasn’t any one thing it was, it was several things that were all taking effect. And it took several days, if not weeks, to remedy, which we did. And there was this problem became nobody in the organisation was talking about anything else about this problem. Because if you have a bunch of journalists whose stories are not getting in front of people, they get pretty upset pretty darn quickly. And every morning at The Guardian, there’s something called the morning conference, where the editorial team discusses what the editorial agenda and the work they’re doing for the day ahead, it’s the meeting. And I was summoned to speak at that meeting. And before editorial even got into the agenda of the day, I had to give him an update. That was just everybody was really, really struggling with what was going on. But the team did an amazing job, they got their head down every time we found one of the other issues, they resolved it. And frankly, they earned more goodwill, and confidence in those sort of days or a few weeks where they fix that big problem, then probably the two years beforehand, because they were just seen as very authoritative Lee going around doing their job and doing it brilliantly. And when all else were panicking, they were calm, methodical, and gave confidence to the organisation that it could be sorted. So that example, I think, goes completely contrary to the being attached to the big sexy project. Because this was the this was the project that went horribly wrong for a period of time. But the team that sold it probably had more exposure and more Goodwill’s than anybody else.
Randy Silver:
So you have to be lucky enough to be on the big sexy project or suffered a big sexy disaster. No, that’s the message.
Tanya Cordrey:
No, I would say that whatever project you’re in, make sure you’re somebody who’s demonstrating good judgement when making decisions, can respond and anticipate quickly to problems and just communicate the great work that you’re doing, whether you’re sort of creating value by doing something awesome, or whether you’re saving value by helping to solve a rather thorny problem. So whatever project, you can start out,
Randy Silver:
thank you. I think that’s a much better subhead, then what?
Lily Smith:
And Tanya, you’ve kind of given us a load of great tips for how to kind of show that you’re capable of that more strategic work and working your way up into that leadership level. But what about kind of, you know, really breaking into the C suite and moving into a C suite position? What advice would you give to someone who really had that in their sights as like a position that they wanted to hold in the future, and they’re currently working in product.
Tanya Cordrey:
So we’ve touched on this, I think, a little earlier. But I would say that anybody who wants that step, you always have to be demonstrating skills for the next job, you’ve got to be ready for the next job. And for that sort of C suite role, there are certain things that you need to demonstrate. So one, you’ve got to be great at communicating. So you have to make sure you’re good at communicating, you’re good at telling a good story. You’ve got to show your as I’ve mentioned, you’re good at problem resolution, you’ve got to show that you can lead teams. Now a lot of people often say I don’t manage anybody, how can I get a job managing folks? Well, the great thing about a product manager role is that you work across the organisation. Even if you’re not managing a large team, you have the ability to be a leader, a virtual leader of a large team. So really show and demonstrate those sort of leadership potentials. And as I said, you need to also be really good at thinking about both the long term innovation as well as the short term optimization, that piece of our strategy and execute So it’s a lot. But the good thing about the breadth of a product manager role is that you should be able to demonstrate all of that every week.
Lily Smith:
That’s very sound advice. Thank you so much. It’s been great talking to you. We’re out of time. Sadly, it’s flown by as usual. But it’s been really fantastic. Vicki, thank you so much. It’s wonderful speaking to you today. Okay, Randy. So now we’ve got our careers back on track. Let’s give people a sneak peek into some of the topics we’ve got coming up.
Randy Silver:
What do we have? What do we have?
Lily Smith:
We have some very interesting chats around how to get your team organised, and who should be doing what in the product function.
Randy Silver:
We’re going to be talking to someone about moving from Product Manager to founder,
Lily Smith:
and we’re also talking to someone who proves that your website sucks, I’m afraid and there’s data to prove it.
Randy Silver:
I always suspected my website touch but I’d be glad to know what data to use to prove it properly.
Lily Smith:
So subscribe, like and check out the upcoming episodes. I hope you enjoyed them.
Randy Silver:
Stop to you soon. See you next week.
Lily Smith:
haste, me, Lily Smith and
Randy Silver:
me Randy silver.
Lily Smith:
Emily Tate is our producer. And Luke Smith is our editor.
Randy Silver:
Our theme music is from Humbard baseband power. That’s p au. Thanks to Ana kittler, who runs product tank and MTP engage in Hamburg and plays bass in the band for letting us use their music. Connect with your local product community via product tech or regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.
Lily Smith:
If there’s not one Nagy you can consider starting one yourself. To find out more go to mind the product.com forward slash product tank.
Randy Silver:
Product tech is a global community of meetups driven by and for product people. We offer expert talks group discussion and a safe environment for product people to come together and share greetings and tips.
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